Blow back after the murder

Three expatriate guys I know are all facing various levels of Jinotegan mistrust of gringos these days. I haven't particularly noticed much myself, maybe a little colder, but then as one of them said, I'm a woman.

Two of them felt that the killer should be executed. One's suggestion was that he be taken in the woods and shot in the heart and head; the other one's suggestion was that he should be hanged in public to discourage other similar gringos from coming down.

At least around here, there's a sense that at least half the expats come down to do things they might not have done in their home countries -- from living in the country with guns and growing long mustaches to less harmless things. Nicaragua is a playground for many expatriates.

The maximum sentence here is 30 years -- and unless the killer's family has people who can pay for the better cell and food (as Puracal's family finally did), he will be doing time in general population. The two guys who wished him dead figured that the Nicaraguan inmates would take care of him.

Not many of us here in Jinotega Department -- one estimate is something like 80 in the general area. One killer in 80 is not a good reflection on the expats here, and that some of those wanted to get him help to get out probably didn't help either.

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Push Back

Blow Back is what happens after judge declares him innocent or guilty and later a lenient sentence. So 2 dates to make note of in the future.

Start filling the sandbags now and do keep your powder dry...

Givner confessed and is apparently trying to blame the victim

Some of what further happens probably depends on what drugs the cops found at his house and what self-inflicted drug-insanity means in Nicaraguan law. If he gets 30 years, I don't think either Nicaraguans or expatriates will be upset. Twenty will probably be long enough to see him die in a Nicaraguan prison.

Rebecca Brown

Ah, Nica "justice"

Abject lesson in Lead floats, cork sinks.

Well, it sounds like reasonable justice to me

Even in the US, you can be quite rich and quite obviously crazy and die in prison for a stupid killing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Eleuthère_du_Pont

The verdict in that case was "mentally ill but guilty."

Rebecca Brown

Givner's lawyer and court translator quit first day at court

Lawyer says he has just found out victims family are related to him...and the translator got slapped about outside the court....

You can't make this stuff up.

Yesterday, I was out and about and didn't feel any chilliness

I think the local tensions about even the gringo guys is fading. One friend had a Nicaragua friend speak up for him. Another friend seems to be okay. I don't know about my third source. After yesterday's more normal day, I realized that things had been a trifle chilly even for me.

Maybe everyone who wanted to be fussy was at court?

Nobody I know here, expatriate or local, wants Givner to walk. Even if Harley was stealing, or had stolen, self-defense pleas generally require reporting the killing quickly, not putting the head out in the trash. Don't know NIcaraguan law, but having stolen something doesn't give anyone the right to hunt the thief and kill him in the US. In the middle of committing the crime, yes.

Don't know how I missed that in Nicaragua Dispatch earlier when I was trying to find out what happened yesterday with Puracal.

People who are flight risks on major felony charges don't get bail, and despite what's been reported, the US and Nicaragua do have a very old and apparently still standing extradition treaty.

If Givner had shot Harley in mid-theft, and called the cops immediately after, this would be a different scenario.

Rebecca Brown

His only Hope

Is to get released on bond pending court date.

Why he did not flee after the murder would be first question I would ask him.

Mark, you are not getting it...

He was living with the body parts...he was a nutcase...trying to understand him is a waste of time.

He is (was temporarily) Insane and the States will ship him home after public opinion has calmed down and the family realize that they are not going to get any money from him.

The driver of the garbage truck along with a garbage collector found a bag containing a human head and an arm but did not or could not relate it to Givners house at the time.

Meanwhile, Hugo Guerrero, a neighbor next to the house rented by the Defendent stated that he had been enduring a bad smell coming out of the house for 10 days.

That complaint led police to search the house rental Givner, where they found the dismembered remains of Silva.

La Prensa said he was going to be tried on Sept. 20th

http://www.laprensa.com.ni/2012/08/21/ambito/113231-casi-linchan-a-extra...

His former defense lawyer suggests Givner needs a sanity hearing by a specialist in forensic psychiatry.

If the Nicaragua court decides he's crazy, and if he has any concerned friends or family, the Nicaraguans and the US might work out a transfer to a US federal psychiatric hospital like St. Elizabeths in DC, but otherwise, what would be wrong with him getting 30 years and serving that in a Nicaraguan institution, either prison or an institution for the criminally insane?

Rebecca Brown

silly gossip

1 out of 80 is not statistically significant.

"You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality." Ayn Rand

We called the US Embassy once after a suicide attempt.

A tourist...not a threat, an actual action. They said there was nothing they could do and we should find out about local help.

So if you had phoned them about this guy in Jinotega being odd, what would they have done?

If I had phoned the Embassy because a lesbian American was entertaining legal aged Nica girls and having crazy drunken sex parties....What would they have said?

We can't buy insurance for the vagaries of human nature, just keep out of its way.

And Rebecca, its time to give this one up. If it had been in Cardenas you wouldn't even be talking about it.

Who did

Puracal kill!!!!

Puracal didn't kill anyone. I'm talking about Basil Givner

...who admitted to killing and cutting up his interpreter and putting the head and some other parts out in the trash. Local story is that the Givner claims the interpreter was stealing from him (hanging out with druggies will get all your property rights respected where?), and so killed him.

Basically, if the killer hadn't been an expat, it would have been two druggies having a falling out and one killing the other over something stupid that the other one did.

The idea that Nicaragua may be attracting expats like Givner is what's chilling.

Only this part was about Puracal and may be of interest to some of you in the future:

The Nicaraguan prison system has special cells for people who have money. Puracal's family paid to have him transferred to one of them after he lost considerable weight in the common prison. The Nicaraguan special cell arrangement also means, apparently, better food, or the family may have paid for that separately.

Now, not about Puracal but about the future convicts who break Nicaraguan law:

I don't know how much this costs, but apparently, it's worth it if you're a gringo in a Nicaraguan prison. Phil should probably make a page on how to get this done and who to contact about making the payments if any of you are sentenced to prison in the future, or if future readers are. Don't know how the odds compare for all the expats in Nicaragua over five years, but it was, at least temporarily, one in about 80 here over five years, and another foreign national has been in jail twice, though released in both instances. Eventually, one of the readers of this will be looking at Nicaraguan prison time. I'm just contributing to the site by suggesting that if a person doesn't want to do time in general population that there are alternative cells if you have the money.

Social Security apparently stops when you go to prison so don't count on that (one of the other local expats told me that).

Rebecca Brown

More Balderdash And Speculation

"Eventually, one of the readers of this will be looking at Nicaraguan prison time. " Possibly true, but it won't be due to any criminal activity. Look at Puracal.

"and another foreign national has been in jail twice, though released in both instances." I take it you speak of Suzanne and a couple of local overnights to cool off ?? She's a passionate woman who doesn't always make the best relationship decisions. That's not criminal . . .

" . . The idea that Nicaragua may be attracting expats like Givner is what's chilling. ..."

Givner was insane, either temporarily due to the alcohol and other substances, or due to a long term mental illness. Anyone who lives with the smell of rotting human flesh has to be sedated in some fashion. He doesn't represent the typical ex-pat I've met in my time in Nicaragua. Far from it. Not even close.

I don't understand the fascination with Givner. He did the crime, he'll do the time. He's an anomaly. Your continued inferences that Givner is somehow representative of Gringos in Nicaragua is offensive -especially in light of the recent, overwhelming evidence that there are a lot of ex-pats doing some serious good work in the country.

The lawyer with the twins gave you the opportunity to paint all the Gringos in Nicaragua as pedophiles.

What's next? This is getting old, as is reminiscing about the good times in Patrick County. How about a different focus?

Errr...I posted the Serial killer link didn't I?

From there you will find that it was no idle speculation.

Yeah, you did.

The point isn't that ALL expats, or even ALL single expat males, or even most single expat males are serious law breakers. It's that some of them will be, more than casual contacts with people in an average Canadian city or town or an average US suburb would be. People CAN come to Nicaragua to get away from something or with something, more than they'd go to Calgary to do that, I suspect.

Some people are cons and hustlers in minor but not illegal ways; and some are worse.

Not all expats are nice. If anyone finds this offensive, that's his problem.

Rebecca Brown

Whats "Chilling" for me is

That when the likes of Givner finally go nuts

Some of their character traits are chillingly similar to some of the nuts on blogs such as this.

Or That Guy

who shot the twelve people in Colorado.

When you add brains to that level of malevolence you have a recipe for true disaster. We'll never know his motivation. It really could have been much worse, by a couple orders of magnitude.

There are over 300 million people in the US. Some are mentally ill. It's not a homogenous society, some rules are applied unequally, and competition can be intense.

The odds don't favor us.

I am only too pleased that Rebecca is in Jinotega

She would have a field day here in SJdS.

What I've been meaning to ask you....

...the folks offering coke every other block or so -- are they really selling that much coke in San Juan del Sur, or is that a scam to lure people into being robbed (I'd guess the latter).

Heard about that from two wandering backpacking people on a sustainable agriculture mission who had visited Granada and San Juan del Sur and were in Jinotega when they heard two of us speaking English. We sent them to a ecolodge near here.

I suspect you know that not every expat is a sweetheart (remembering seeing a tape of two expats in a fist fight somewhere).

Rebecca Brown

That fight was a beauty...

Two gringos going at it, I think the ex-marine won.

I remember a guy from Melbourne Australia salivating at the price. I don't recall the amount but whatever it was, it was $30 here and $400 in Melbourne...

My guess is that that if you're lucky, you just end up....

...with talcum powder. "Hey, man, a coke dealer robbed me" doesn't play well with most local police anywhere.

The woman who posted the vid said, "The only violence I've ever seen in Nicaragua was Americans." Apparently, happened a few years ago.

Rebecca Brown