I'm Voting PLI

http://www.nicaraguadispatch.com/news/2012/09/like-lambs-to-the-slaughte...

Or, at least I would if Nicaragua were like the US and I were able to vote without any form of identification whatsoever.

Is there any other country in the world where you can vote without ID ? I couldn't find any, but I might have missed one.

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Should this be moved?

Maybe to a politics forum?

It doesn't seem very relevant to Nicaragua. Cedulas may or may not be hard to come by, but that's not what the first post is about.

WARNING: UNCENSORED AND UNSOLICITED OPINION BELOW

Maybe politics would be better off focusing on real, known issues of the time than on less important, purely political gains. For example, the extremely low rates of voter fraud in the US...

Yeah, but to mention that is also political :)

I don't know if the people making these statement know they're partial or wrong, or if they think the people they're addressing are stupid folk who will believe anything if it's repeated enough, or if they're the stupid folks who believed something because it was repeated enough times.

Rebecca Brown

Follow up

Because I know you're looking for... something.

I've found 2 sites so far. One's complete bunk (I won't link it, even though it's extremely high in search results for "voter fraud in the US"). The other gives a more interesting view. From http://ricochet.com/intel/Has-voter-fraud-been-a-demonstrated-problem-in... :

Has voter fraud been a demonstrated problem in recent U.S. history? Diane Ellis, Ed. Posted Jan 18 at 5:00pm · Edited Apr 3 at 9:16am · Important A liberal acquaintance of mine who was arguing against the requirement of identification at the polling place told me that "voter fraud" was a Republican red herring, and that there is no substantial proof that it's much of a problem in the U.S.

Joseph Eagar: Politicians will cite specific, mostly anecdotal examples. Voter fraud is only a problem in really close elections. That's why studies that show it "isn't a problem" because it happens so rarely are bogus: if an election is decided by 500 votes, voter fraud becomes a much bigger issue than if it is decided by a much larger number. #1· Sep 11 at 3:43am

Joseph has a point. Isn't the problem, in Joseph's view, more to do with the system? I mean, voter fraud could be more easily addressed and a couple of other issues avoided by removing the electoral college, at least for Presidential elections.

Someone Decided To

turn this into something it was not. I simply asked the question, is there any country in the world (besides the US) that does NOT require voter identification? I'm still waiting for an affirmative answer.

I didn't bring up any allegations of voter fraud, etc, We've already seen significant voter registration frauds in the case of the late ACORN, with Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck and other cartoon characters registered, as well as complete pages from phone books.

Actually, the post was more an attempt to get the pic of the pretty girls onto the site -not to make any political statement.

We may see another election this November where the popular vote does not match the results of the Electoral College. For example, I can vote in my choice of two states: either Idaho or California. In Idaho, my vote has no value since the state will be overwhelmingly red and the "state" votes will go to Romney. If I voted in California, the state's votes will go to Obama. So, my vote is irrelevant in either case.

If I were voting in Florida, Ohio, Virginia, that would not be the case. My vote would count, and way out of proportion to voting in established blue or red states.

ACORN reported those "registrations"

It hired kids to register voters. Some of those were lazy; some of those were very possibly Republican operatives trying to destroy Acorn, which in my experience with it as a first time home buyer was very positive.

Acorn could not legally toss out those registrations which it knew were fraudulent but it did flag them. I'm sure one of their "sins" was warning new home buyers about problematic home loan programs, which it did. Those problematic loans are a large part of what got the economy into the state it's in. Acorn had programs for saving (matching savings for the very poor) to get down payments up to a point where the homebuyer could get a better loan. They were financially prudent, so in the way of the go go bank's plans.

As I pointed out, many other countries allow far more different forms of ID or provide it as part of being a citizen with an address, or have only recently started asking for photo ID (I couldn't quickly find the information on the UK, but I know there was considerable opposition to a national ID).

Rebecca Brown

So You Do Know

of a country somewhere in the world that allows voting without identification? Besides the US, or course.

Endless obfuscation, excuses, parsing and rationalization, but no simple answer to a very simple question.

Again, black and white thinking means not enough data

The thing about most of the other countries is that they want all of their citizens to vote, and so the ID is tied into the medical insurance card, or the card that went out FREE to all citizens, or it's like Australia and you're fined if you don't vote. The very obvious intent of the various ID laws in the US is to create a poll tax by another name.

The states aren't giving people FREE IDs and the steps for getting a driver's license require getting a birth certificate, which may or may not be as trivial as having to have a driver's license in the first place (a friend has been going through some of this in Georgia with getting a driver's license).

This is a question with no simple answer. What is the intent of changing the laws at this point? My thinking is that it is to disenfranchise voters who are urban, from the rural South who may or may not have been in hospitals, who don't drive. The system as it is has worked for decades. Before that, the vote was public. Whoever "Rebecca Brown in such and such precinct is, she can only vote once.

The kicker in this is that many of the same states that are creating the new "stop the black vote" laws are allowing absentee ballots with NO identification at all. Poor elderly urban blacks who can't drive are unlikely to be expatriates, so the expatriates at the most have to have someone swear their them.

Ask a begging question and get the realities explained to you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws is a very good summary of the issues. Issue free photo IDs at the polling places and the whole thing is dealt with. But that's very obviously not the goal of the people passing these laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression explains the issues further. Comparing countries that issue all their citizens ID cards without screening for race, income, which political parties they're registered with, and all that, is very different from a state that used to put up strong barriers to minority voting decided for this election to put up a barrier to voting that had not been necessary (vanishingly little voter fraud evidence) or required of all voters even now (see my comments about absentee ballots).

Ask a bogus question that can't be answered properly without explanations and qualification and you will look like you're trying to compare how countries with national id cards or voting cards sent by mail do things compared to how racist states like South Carolina would like to do things.

Rebecca Brown

No No No.........

The simple question was this:

"Is there any other country in the world where you can vote without ID ? I couldn't find any, but I might have missed one".

Nothing bogus, South Carolina, Appalachian, racist or Blue Ridge Mountain about it.

Switzerland

Or are you trolling?

Rebecca Brown

No. All I was doing was ....

Reminding you of the original question.

I will ignore the other part of your comment.

Everything

In the post itself was political. The title, the link (with the title "Like Lambs to the Slaughter..." I skipped clicking the link), and the two lines following it. The question may have been simple, but it was also simple to answer. Less than one page into an approximately 10 second Google search ("countries without voter id requirements" at a pokey 30WPM) yields an answer.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=countries+without+voter+id+requirements

From http://www.whytuesday.org/category/voter-id-requirements/ :

"While many countries require identification for voting, some do not. Countries that do not require identification include Denmark, Australia, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom (with the exception of Northern Ireland). In Norway, Ireland, and the Netherlands, voters are required to present identification only if it is requested by a poll worker. In Switzerland, every registered voter is sent a registration card prior to an election, and if the voter brings her registration card to the polling place, no additional identification is needed."

I apologize for being confused when I read KWP's initial post. Apparently he just wanted to post pretty girls but I must have confused them with politics. My bad.

I was hoping that someone who actually had experience

...with the UK would have answered that one. A registration card is not a photo ID in the Swiss case.

This is the week where all the right wing social media people are defending the new laws about voting with only a state-issued ID unless you're an expat, in which case, no worries, Jack. It's popping up lots of other places than here, and it was really only relevant here because the FSLN is accused of the same sort of thing that the Republicans are trying to pull, even without evidence that there is a voter fraud problem.

The Justice Department is stopping some of the more egregious attempts by some of the states with long track records of voter suppression.

If the Republicans or the FSLN or the PRI or MRS can't win honestly, they deserve to lose. Period, no matter what Key West Pirate believes about good old fashioned voter intimidation, savage capitalism, or how living like Chinese factory workers will make America competitive again.

Rebecca Brown

UK voting

In the UK the first step is to get oneself on the electoral roll. Whether any checks are done at this stage i don'tknow. About six weeks before an election (national or local) one receives a voting card through the post. This card needs to be shown at the polling station although i think you can just give your address and proof of identity to the polling officials if you have lost or forgotten it. I believe a passport or driving licence suffice.

Are you saying

Are you saying that you can go to the polling station and vote without having to show any identification whatsoever?

Yes, But Some

states HAVE mandated identification, so it varies state to state. Some states you just show up, tell them who you are, and they check their list to see if you are on it, and hand you a ballot. That's they way it used to be everywhere not that long ago. US voting is under control of the states, but the feds look at the intent of the voter identification laws, i.e., are they passed to inhibit voting by a class of voters?

There is nothing wrong with this oversight, which is certainly appropriate.

All states have "ID Cards" , which provide the necessary identification one needs for any number of day to day activities. These cards are identical in most respects to the state's driver's license, without conveying driving privileges to the holder.

These ID Cards could be issued free to anyone who made a simple statement that they couldn't afford to pay the $20 or so. It's really a non-issue, and we HAVE had some voter fraud, not significant, but allegedly sufficient to alter the results of an election in So Cal a few years back when non-citizen Hispanics were encouraged to vote in an election for a Hispanic congressional representative.

Voter rolls have been found with felons, deceased, and persons that could not be identified (outside of their names on the voter lists). While it's easy to purge Mickey and Donald from the lists of registered voters, it's not so easy to identify other non-eligible voters.

Why tolerate the potential for fraud when the solution is so simple?

I'd still like to point out, that I didn't plan to start a big political discussion. I just wanted to get the pics of the pretty PLI girls onto the site. My intentions were innocent.

In Massachusetts (USA) I

In Massachusetts (USA) I just go to my assigned polling station, and they simply ask me for my adddress and name. That is marked off a sheet for coming in and leaving the polling station. Coming-in sheet to show that I voted, and leaving-sheet to show that my vote was counted (or at least the ballot was collected). I believe representatives of both parties are involved in the counting (coming and going), as there are always two people manning those stations.

You must be registared to vote, and you're name shows up the list (by address/voting ward) at the polling station. However, to registar my wife showed ID when she registared, but I did not ( I did by mail). I have no idea if the names addresses are cross checked. It would be easy enough to do.

I once opened my wallet to show my Drivers license and was told it wasn't necessary. Americans are not required to carry citizenship identification, so I guess anyone could have voted for me if they wanted to.

elections

Every year when I fill out my income tax return, there is a box I can check to be put on the voter's list. My income tax return also indicates my citizenship status so I doubt you can make it on to the voter's list if you don't qualify. Each polling station's list is a subset of the voter's list. Before the vote, I receive a card in the mail that tells me the location of my polling station. The card is the quickest proof that you're at the right place and they also check your ID (something with your address on it) then strike you off their list once you vote. I would be surprised if voting ever takes longer than 5 minutes. The Canadian federal elections are still counted manually and we have the results late that night (well, wee hours of the morning). My municipal elections are done electronically using a scanner and I don't recall what we do for the provincial elections.

The US has a long history on this one

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/the-ballot-cops/3090...

Many of the states changing their voting laws at this point have the Department of Justice watching them because of earlier civil rights infractions. Pennsylvania has a huge number of Klan groups. The standing joke was Pennsylvania was Pittsburgh and Philadelphia with Alabama in the middle.

Deciding this election where a black man is running for reelection to pass these laws doesn't pass the sniff test.

Australia works to make every citizen vote -- fines them if they don't. Switzerland seems to only require the voter cards the government mails out. Your country allows someone with proper ID to attest for someone who doesn't have it. I think the difference is huge between what these honestly democratic countries do and what states with histories of voter suppression are trying to do with this.

For that matter, _if_ the FSLN is trying to control issuing cedulas to only people it thinks will support them, that also is wrong.

Rebecca Brown

Unfortunately

Unfortunately, we know about this ad nauseum due to all the US TV channels we get. What we don't get is why you put up with it.

Plenty issue ID cards free

The complaint here is that cedulas are controlled by the FSLN and that they make it difficult for non-FSLN voters to get them. Whether that's true or not, apparentlyt the Republicans can't stand it that anyone who is of legal age in the US can vote, even felons in the States of Maine and Vermont and this is about being able to deny the vote to selected categories. Most of the states that passed these laws have very poor records for supporting voting rights.

Canada has a long list of acceptable documents here: http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&...

Switzerland sends a voting card in the mail and if the person brings the card, no further ID is needed. More data here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/voter-id-proponents-po...

"... in many other countries, it’s much easier to obtain identification than it is in the United States because ID cards are issued to all citizens automatically:

“Countries such as Spain, Greece, France, Malta, Belgium, and Italy provide national identity documents to their citizens to use for many purposes, including travel, banking, and healthcare access as well as voting.”

So, when the US provides automatic national ID cards without charge, then maybe. Given the corruption of some election officials, it's probably better to leave it as it is.

Rebecca Brown

Point of fact

My brother-in-law, who lived in the US for 20+ years and returned here to Nicaragua a year ago, has been waiting six months for his cedula. Every week is a different excuse. Seems that Nicaraguans who have spent time in the US are considered "unfriendly" to the FSLN. On the other hand, my Nicaraguan wife, who has been in the US since 1973, applied for her cedula while here on vacation during the Bolanos administration. It was ready in two weeks.

9 of 10

Of Nicas living in the USA are anti Ortega. Most did not vote in past election because they had to return to Nicaragua in order to do so. If your Nica and haved lived in the USA for a stretch forget about getting a job with the government.

Ever hear of Indira Gandhi?

And this is why locking voting rights to state issued ID only

...is problematic in any number of countries.

Rebecca Brown

I'm not waitin on a lady

I'm just waiting for my cedula. Going on 2 months now.

I see a good post....

and want it painted black....

Black Orchid

I Just Wanted

everyone to see the pics of the pretty PLI girls.

http://www.nicaraguadispatch.com/news/2012/09/like-lambs-to-the-slaughte...

Can't get no Satisfaction

. You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes.......

We know

That's why you posted under wildlife! LOL